My friend Steve has posted something interesting about the Sabbath and how we observe it, and I had a chat with him the other week about it too. It has baffled me for a while as to why people seem to forget that commandment, but at the same time it's odd that whilst the Sabbath is the Saturday, we see it as Sunday - so can we see it as the same thing, or perhaps we should hold both of them?
This is an extended reply to his post, so have a look at his post first to see what he has written and the background to what was said at the Christian Union meeting to spark this.
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It's an interesting and important issue, but I think the main thing is that people give it due consideration, prayer and study of the Bible and choose something that is right in their conscience after this. I don't know what I feel entirely, given that I grew up with the same opinions, forced on me to some extent but also felt by me, and I still held these until probably 18 months ago and do to some degree now.
I think it is important to dedicate a day to God and to rest and to help others to rest too. I know it's not particularly British to help others and that we should all live as individuals and get on with our own lives, but I do feel a responsibility to help others lead a good life, and I believe others need rest too. Not many really want to work on a Sunday so is me going shopping really helping them if it increases demand and thus pressure from their employers to work? I had to work Sundays for a while when I really didn't want to, even though I got extra pay, but felt I had to in case I didn't look committed.
On the other hand I've had people come to Church who it would be great to have a chat with afterwards and make them feel welcome, and it may not be suitable or easy to invite them home, so as Wetherspoons is round the corner I can go there with them and buy them a drink or meal. This is vastly different to being so lazy and absent minded as to not buy food the previous day and prepare food then (although admitadely on said Sunday I was also in Sainsburys - my defence was the Summer Ball although it's not a great excuse!).
So I think the key things are these:
1) As it implies in Mark 2:23-27, I think you have to be pragmatic and do whatever you feels brings glory to God and is beneficial to those in need, without using it as an excuse.
2) Being weak and being strong is, I feel, about how you come to your decision rather than the decision itself.
I think legalism implies that you hold to your views because it's what your tradition is, perhaps passed down by your parents, or your Church, or assumed through a vary narrow and shallow reading of scripture. I think the contrasting view is not liberalism, but more to do with people who have studied scripture, gone deeper, and seen what is at the heart of the matter and made their decision based on this. Perhaps Paul has deemed that anyone who deeply studied the scriptures and who understood the gospel would come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter whether you eat meat, which I would say is accurate according to the Bible.
I think for John Risbridger to bring the Sunday thing in without a bit of explanation is a bit misleading, as it's by no means clear cut, in fact flicking through Romans, 14:5-6 seems to address this exact thing, and from my reading there isn't as clear a divide in Paul's mind with regards to this this issue as for vegetarianism. He seems to see the key part as each individual being "fully convinced in his own mind". It may even be that in different circumstances on different occasions that a different conclusion is reached on whether to buy, work, play, etc., as long as that decision is honourable and pleasing to God.
So I guess if you don't do things on Sundays because it's what you've been told to do I would see you as weak. However if you start buying things on Sunday (or more specifically if you refrain from having a separate day of rest for you and others) just because you find it easier not to, then you are just as weak, if not more so.
However, a 'strong' individual will study and pray and seek an answer which he can make with a clear conscience and about which he would be able to stand before God and not feel ashamed. Lets face it, there will probably be a lot of Sundays/Saturdays/Sabbaths before we die, God willing, so I think it is worth giving this a lot of thought and seeking God's will, and then putting that into action in how we live.
5 comments:
This is the conversation that ensued on Facebook...
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Stephen Jarvis
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interesting. i basically agree, but i would say that i don't think sticking to traditions is necessarily bad.
even if someone somehow managed to convince me there is no biblical backing for keeping sundays different by refraining from certain things, i definitely think there is benefit in keeping the whole day separate, rather than just an hour or so.
however, i can see how frowning upon those who don't stick to the same traditions is a sign of weakness, as long as they are merely traditions.
my understanding of the term legalism is that people begin to trust in the rules they obey to get them into heaven. i think my choice of the word 'liberal' may have been a mistake, but i do wonder how many people have really deeply studied the bible and concluded that going to church once on a sunday then treating the rest of the day like any other is really the best way to live. (which i think is kind of what you're getting at)
10 June at 20:34
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Aaron Boardley
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I agree that opposing 'liberalism' and 'legalism' wasn't a good idea, but I appreciate the debate. Broadly I agree with Hewardy, that one can do either thing for the wrong reasons.
It has bugged me on a number of occasions how the commandment seems all but forgotten. The phrase 'keep it holy'...but aren't we to be holy all week? And I am strongly against the church-is-somewhere-you go viewpoint, I fully believe that church-is-something-you-are-part-of, so again although a meeting may occur on Sunday you are no more 'in' church on this day than the others. So what different about a sabbath?
I agree that keeping traditions might not be bad, but only if something good has become tradition! Tradition for tradition sake isn't helpful, one thing that springs to mind is that doing things just because that's how they've always been done doesn't prepare us to 'always be prepared to give an answer...'
I don't know much about Middle Eastern culture but I guess my broad opinion is that the Sabbath was different. It was set aside. More time was given to worship and together with other believers as a body, so this is how I would reflect it on my life. I would set it aside, not doing what I do the rest of the week (namely work/study). I would, through church attendance, give time over to public worship (in addition to my Romans 12 worship throughout the week) and in fellowship with the body of Christ. I would rest. And I would proclaim I was doing this for the Lord.
If something prevented me from doing so or got in the way (the need to travel, the need to get food, etc.) I would night be tied by the 'law' that would prevent me from doing so, this is where legalism comes in. However, to repeatedly arrange plans in advance so that this becomes the role of your Sabbath is, I believe, wrong.
And that did not require two comments, sorry!
10 June at 21:07
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Stephen Jarvis
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That sounds about right to me, but I still have a couple of things.
1. The 'need' to travel, eat etc.
The activities I was really questioning in my original post could definitely not be classed as 'needs'. Obviously some people do need to work on Sundays, for example, hospitals can't just shut down; but shops could, and a German friend told me that in his homeland, shops are generally shut on a Sunday. I would point to Hewardy's part about creating demand.
2. I'm a little confused by the "you are no more 'in' church on this day than the others..." bit.
I certainly agree that we are to be holy all week, and there are certain traditions at my church that I would like to change, but I think the idea of keeping one particular day in the week special is a good one, and John clearly expected people to know which day was the Lord's Day in Rev 1v10.
10 June at 22:41
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Aaron Boardley
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1. I agree. It is a very Western thing to say 'need' when often we mean 'want'.
2. Definitely I agree to keep one day special, and set aside. I'm just against the idea of 'Sunday Christians', whereby acting a certain way on a Sunday excuses the rest of the week. I also believe (although this is not necessarily related) strongly in the church being a body not a building or a meeting, and we are part of 'the church' all week. This is lived out through different meetings and fellowships throughout the week, amongst other things, but I should make it clear that I do agree with you that a day still needs to be set aside, and we should 'not give up meeting together'. This is a part of our weekly walk with Christ, not instead of, which I guess is the same point you are making.
10 June at 23:35
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Chris Heward
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I think the important thing for traditions is that they're not just stuck to because that's what's always happened and for that to occur people have to understand where they come from. Mark 7:7-9 demonstrates how people used a tradition - 'Corban' - to get out of sticking to the 5th commandment. We can do that both ways with the Sabbath, using it to satisfy our conscioence when we know we should be helping someone or doming something on that day, but forgetting it when we've got lots of work to do around exams.
So I think the key thing is understand where they come from and using that knowledge to shape our lives. Tradition for tradition's sake is bad I think because it is not of much benefit (perhaps only for young children) but can lead to legalism and a drifting of attention away from what is important. I don't think legalism is just about how you see your salvation and how it comes, but is also about how you live the Christian life, and as the original passage addresses, if you look down on those that don't follow the rules, even if you recognise that they're saved, then that puts a barrier between the two people/groups, is a stumbling block to the one 'breaking the rules' and can also be a stumbling block to the other as their pride and anger increases whilst their love diminshes. That's the real danger of tradition I believe, at least for Bible-believing Christians who believe in salvation through grace.
Aaron, I'm a bit confused by your last point at 21:07? Are you saying that if you make preperations before your day off then that is legalism too I was a bit confused when you spoke about the 'role of the Sabbath'.
11 June at 13:27
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Stephen Jarvis
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Looking at your last point Chris, about stumbling blocks, I hope I'm questioning things for the right reasons and not creating stumbling blocks for anyone just because I think it's right to stick to keeping Sundays different.
I'm sure you would agree that if someone is doing something wrong they should be corrected (1 Cor 5), so we need to decide what is merely tradition and what is disobedient.
I wouldn't have written my original post if I hadn't felt like a stumbling block had been placed in front of me with the implication that my faith is weak.
I think Aaron means it's not good to constantly plan to do things on the Sunday. It's interesting that he described it as 'wrong', because that suggests this is an issue of right and wrong rather than traditions.
The other commandments don't tend to be considered negotiable based on circumstances.
I hope I haven't twisted what he said to fit my own view there.
11 June at 14:28
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Chris Heward
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Sometimes commandments have to dropped, or maybe in terms of how we look at them. If we're told to honour our father and mother but they are braeking on of the other commandments, then we may have to go against what they say. I suppose it might be that there is a difference between honouring and doing what they say, but I think my point is that things aren't always black and white, and there aer tihngs that come up that can't be said to be right or wrong, and when we are confronted with these then we have to make a choice with good conscience.
The Sabbath day may be one of these that isn't clear, as if the Sabbath is a Saturday, then should we in fact keep the Saturday as holy rather than Sunday as we do now. The Seventh Day adventists think so. The rest of the Christian world thinks not and I guess we could go back but maybe that would be legalism? Or maybe that would be putting God's commands above the Christian tradition of keeping Sunday holy...
It's also worth considering the other parts of the Sabbath, such as leaving crops every 7th year, forgiving debts and the Jubilee year, which I would say is as much a part of the Sabbath as the day in a week. I'm not saying this in a 'is that what you really want Steve?' way; it's a genuine question that I think Christians need to consider.
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Stephen Jarvis
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Those are fair points, but I think I should be trying to obey God in the situation he's put me in, and in my current situation Sunday is treated as the Sabbath. I think I should be trying to stick to God's commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy.
In the 10 commandments it's definitely the day. I agree that people should think about the sabbatical year, but again, applying to my own situation: I don't have any crops, I haven't lent anyone any serious amounts of money, so I'm not sure how I would keep the sabbatical year. I do know that there are things I can do, or not do, to keep the Sabbath day separate from the rest of the week.
Am I being legalistic?
11 June at 15:49
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Stephen Jarvis
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If we decide to apply the food section of Rom 14 to Sundays and accept that my faith is indeed weak, based on v23 I would be sinning by joining in with what other people are happy to do on a Sunday, and if they carry on with my knowledge they are not walking in love (v15). At the same time, if my faith is weak, I need to get myself sorted out.
11 June at 15:50
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Chris Heward
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I don't think you're legalistic really. Whenever I've said 'you' so far I've meant people in general, although obviously it applies to us. I think if you're only doing it because you've been told to then that is what is weak, although it sounds like that isn't the case, and you want to consider it more. In terms of being legalistic, if you had to do things detrimental to yours or others relationships with God to keep the Sabbath holy when there is no alternative, that may be legalistic. For example if I went home for the weekend and had a 9 o'clock lecture on Monday then it would be bad to miss the lecture and to honour my mother and father I would want to go to Church with them, spend time with them and have lunch together, so I may have to use the train to go home on the Sunday afternoon. To not do these things because of not using the train might be considered legalistic.
Similarly, if like I said in my post you could help someone new at your church by taking them out for a meal but didn't because it was a Sunday then that might be considered legalistic. I don't think you'd be condemned for deciding either way, as long as you gave it some thought and made a decision with the best intentions. I hope this makes sense.
Jesus often refered to his disciples as having little faith and I guess we can all strengthnen our faith by studying his word more and spending more time with Him, so from that point of view then your faith is weak, as it is for all of us, but it's not something we can 'sort out' as such, we just have to keep asking him to strengthen our faith.
11 June at 16:19
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Chris Heward
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The fact you care so much is honouring to God and I just encourage you to keep thinking and praying about these things.
With regards to others, if you know them well I'd encourage you to challenge them when it is appropriate and do it in a way that is building them up, as well as making it clear that you feel as though you are having a stumbling block put in your way by them. If you don't find it easy in person, maybe do it via email but tell them you'll do it first.
Thankfully in the summer we go to the park which means we can make lunch at home, but the winter will be harder. I made a suggestion a while back, as did someone else, that maybe we could make a meal at one of the Churches in town, everyone chipping in food and cooking, which would be a good time for fellowship and would be something to invite friends to. Maybe that's an idea that could be revived?
11 June at 16:23
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Stephen Jarvis
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Yeah by 'sorted out' I meant I shouldn't be content with my weak faith, and shouldn't try to 'correct' those with 'stronger' faith.
With both the examples you've mentioned there (16:16 & 16:19) I can see that, while I would try to avoid either of them, it could be helpful to use public transport or Wetherspoons on a Sunday.
What gets to me is people seemingly not thinking twice about doing things they could quite easily avoid.
11 June at 16:31
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Aaron Boardley
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In response to your question to me, Chris, Stephen summed it up well, yes. I don't think it's legalism to prepare for the Sabbath any more than I think that keeping the Sabbath is legalistic. My words got a bit muddled so close to my bedtime, but I meant that I am not as such against 'doing stuff' on a Sunday if it needs to be done, but think it is bad to live a life where Sunday is a 'doing stuff' day (so, contrasting one-offs with a lifestyle).
Don't read to much into me saying 'wrong' as opposed to "I disagree" or "I wouldn't" or "it goes against..." etc. Whilst there are absolutes of course I understand this is a grey area and agree with both of you on your points of issues of conscience etc., 'wrong' was just the easiest word that came to mind!
11 June at 19:23
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